Elle 0:00
Leigh Blair is a queer author from Oregon who writes low angst sweetened, steamy mm romances full of found family. She's constantly amused by the antics of her two ginger cats considers daydreaming about future trips to Scotland a part time job and is obsessed with shits Creek to an alarming degree. When she's not writing. She is crafting or working her day job and communications. We also host a podcast called the low angst library, where she interviews authors who write romances starring characters under the LGBTQ i A to S plus umbrella. Welcome. We just named scenes. I am thrilled to have you here.

Lee 0:38
Thank you so much. I am super pumped to be here. I love this podcast so much. I can't wait to talk to you.

Elle 0:43
I can't wait for your podcast launch. i Congratulations. I know you're in like launch mode. And you haven't. You haven't yet but by the time this airs, it will be out in the world. And it will have you'll probably have a bunch of upper episodes out at that point. So Whoa, where to begin? I mean, I kind of feel like we're there. Let's talk about the podcast. Alright, so we're talking about low X. Do you have a podcast low X library? What is low ext?

Lee 1:15
So I had never really thought much about the word angst until I joined my first fandom and 2020 the shits Creek fandom. Seriously, I'm super obsessed.

Elle 1:29
Really? I've never seen an app. That's okay. Okay.

Lee 1:33
I didn't watch it for a very long time either. No judgment. It just there's just something about it that really clicked for me. And I really got into fanfiction. And that was my first time reading and writing fanfic. And I saw a lot of people were specifically requesting, hey, do you have any recommendations for high NK stories or low angst? And they were tagging their fix in that way? And I just, I had never really thought about it. So that got me thinking more and more about okay, well, what does angst mean to me? And as I've been talking to authors for podcasts, interviews, and just having more and more conversations about low angst, I realized it's very subjective. It's sort of like asking someone to define okay, what's a spicy scene to you? What is spice for you? What is like heavy emotion for you, it's pretty subjective. But for me, it's usually something that's on the lighter end of the spectrum in terms of tone. A lot of times the conflict intention might be external, or the characters kind of getting over their own bullshit, or like the characters like teaming up to battle some external issue. If there's a breakup, it's usually resolved pretty quickly. And for some people, low angst might mean that like the backstories of the characters, or the settings aren't too intense, because there's just some scenarios that are so heavy in nature that it just really makes it difficult to have like a lighter, low NK story. For me, I really like to consider my stories, this kind of communication porn, because at the point where characters might break up and a hiring story, I tried to, like lean toward the characters talking it out, or one of the characters saying, Hey, I just need to step back for a minute and process some things and then we'll talk instead of like a big misunderstanding or something. But I think kind of in general, some people assume that low angst means absolutely no tension or conflict that it's just like Insta love on page one. super fluffy the whole way through but that's not really the case. I think in general, kind of like the the valleys or the dips in the low ink story just might not run as deep or the roller coaster doesn't drop quite as far as hiring story.

Elle 4:02
Okay, because I'm kind of wondering like do you think like rom com cannot be high ext because rom coms to me feel like they're I think they're like low angst by nature, right, because they're funny, but but now I'm sort of wondering could they be high axed?

Lee 4:16
That's a good question. I think. I think the rom com umbrella has been broadening and overlapping so much with contemporary romance, that it's harder and harder to like, find the lines but I do agree like in general, I think rom coms can be lower angst. But for me, it's a feeling like if I feel from early in the story, that the author is building up to this really intense breakup moment like they're setting the page or setting the tone like okay, this is an issue that one of the characters has, and they just kind of keep hitting at it. Like a book I'm reading now that's what's happening is someone there's some homophobia as part of the story. And it's a character having a buy awakening. And so he's assumed he strayed in a sort of like battling with some internalized homophobia. And so it just that every, every time I read a chapter, I'm just like they're building up to this moment where there's that's going to come into play. And I think that that can still happen in a rom com, that there can still be that kind of like, really intense moment. But I think that maybe it just hopefully isn't as intense because of the calm part of the ROM.

Elle 5:31
Right? Because when I sort of think Hi acts like, I'm over here thinking like, oh, the mafia, just like, You know what I mean, like that sort of like, but maybe I'm confusing, like, angst with like, high drama, right, or high stakes, or like, Uber high stakes.

Lee 5:46
Yeah. And that's kind of where I've settled to is, I feel like, there's a difference between angst and drama. And to me, like, for my definition that I found, like, people will seriously have the super wide definitions of it. But for me, the angst is when it's between the people in the relationship, and that's where the conflict is happening. Like, they're intentionally or unintentionally kind of hurting each other or stepping in each other's way. But when there's just like that external crap, like trying to get the promotion or trying to save the town, or trying to run from the bad guys, that feels like drama to me, and as long as the relationship characters are like working with each other, I'm totally fine with with heavier scenarios. But I do think like, yeah, it's harder to have a low angst, Mafia story unless it's really intentionally meant to be funny, or like, sex trafficking. I cannot imagine a scenario where sex trafficking story is going to be low angst.

Elle 6:44
Oh, I mean, you know, sex trafficking rom com like, What? What? What?

Lee 6:50
That's, that's a tough one for me to visualize.

Elle 6:52
Yeah, no, that's not gonna happen. What is it about lo x that you love? Like, what drew you to that? Because I, honestly until you, you like, I saw your podcast and you bring it up on social media. And I was reading I was like, I don't think I've ever heard of like low X. Like, it's always been like, you know, in reviews, oh, the angst. I love the angst you know, that sort of everybody seems to love high angst. And so low, I was like, intrigued by the low angst and I'm curious, what is it about it that you love.

Lee 7:23
So I love the Clifton Strengths. So for anyone who's done those, I am number one positivity. And that means I really like things to be happy and light all the time. And so I really struggle when something's heavy. And for me, my Romans that I read, because I'm a very voracious reader, that's an escape from the heaviness of the world. And so I like the lighter tone that I know, like, I know, you're gonna get the eta and a romance. But I don't want the roller coaster drops to be too heavy most of the time when I'm reading for fun. And so it just helps me enjoy the romances and staying and kind of like a lighter, fluffier tone. And I honestly had no idea that that was even a market or a thing that readers searched for until I kind of got into writing queer romance and after the fandom stuff and realized people specifically say like in book rec groups, hey, I'm looking for a low hanging Street, can you suggest a low hanging street, or PR authors put it in their marketing and like I put it in my blurbs. I write low angst, romance because I found that that's actually a search term that people seek out. And for me as a reader, oh my god, I'm so excited because I can specifically seek out. I just want fluff just like you. Like, I love that it's out there. So when people want something heavier, you're like, Okay, I want something higher inks or medium inks. But when you want something fluffy, it just kind of helps us filter what we're need for our mood reading, you know? Yeah,

Elle 8:59
I really love that. I like I said, I had no idea that like low angst was a thing. And I you know, I but of course it is right, like, and I just think of like, well, it's either, like I just kind of look at tropes, I guess rather than then, you know, and that's sort of like, where I make my assumption about how heavy it's going to be. Right.

Lee 9:20
Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think that's what I what I did as well until I knew it was a thing because like, Gosh, 15 years of writing romance, it was just, it's just the conflict and the tension and the drama, like there wasn't nuance to it. But now when I think like, okay, you know, brother's best friend. I can think of books that have tackled that trope in like a really heavy emotional way because the brother is really upset about the relationship or like it with threatens to break a family apart, which might keep the relationship apart. Or a really like light, fluffy The boy the brother is actually trying to like suddenly match me like one of my I just beta read a book for a friend that's going to come out soon. And that's kind of what's happening is the the, they don't realize that brothers actually invested in trying to get the couple together and it is very low angst and light and fluffy.

Elle 10:15
Oh my god, I actually really liked that. I think that sounds really cute. It was so

Lee 10:19
cute. I loved it.

Elle 10:22
So you you had you told me read your first romance in 2005? And do you remember what book it was?

Lee 10:29
Oh, I totally do. Oh, my gosh, I still tell the author. I like I came across the author a couple months ago. And I was like, hi, your book is why write romance today. So it was a Girl's Guide to vampires by Katie McAllister. And I didn't know it was a romance. So I had graduated college and I was tired of reading all the academic books. And I was like, finally I can read for myself. And I read, like all of Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles and I just wanted more vampire books. So super into paranormal. And back then, Amazon users could create, like recommendation pages. And of just like, hey, if you if you're looking for really dark and heavy vampires read these books. If you want vampire set in this part of the world, or that part of the world or historical or contemporary if you want funny vampires. Read Katie Macalister books. Like I legit. Didn't even consider funny vampires as a thing I was shocked. virus can be funny, because everything I'd read was like brooding and dark. And so I get the bug. And I'm reading it. And I just like cannot put it down like, oh, this little spicy. This is kind of romantic, what is happening. And then I googled the author. And it was like, Caitlin calendars, a romance novelist. So I was like, why this is a romance novel. Like I totally thought incorrectly. Fabio bodice rippers, all of the like, negative stereotypes on romance. And as soon as I read that book, I was like, Yep, this is what I want to read. And oh my god, this is what I want to write.

Elle 12:08
Oh my gosh, so you had never written around? You had never read a romance before that.

Lee 12:12
No, never. That's wild. That's really

Elle 12:15
wild that you were able to sort of like never like it just didn't like enter your orbit even as like, because I guess I guess it's also like, how do you qualify it? Right. Like when I was growing up? Sweet Valley High was a really big deal. And I consider that young adult romance.

Lee 12:30
Oh, that's a good point. Yeah.

Elle 12:31
So I guess it depends, sort of like, you know, was there anything like that in your life?

Lee 12:36
Um, I think I mostly read creepy shit, as I remember, like sneaking and reading True Crime books, like the serial killer dictionaries, and like gory horror stories. And I think I read a lot of that. Okay. Yeah, just one extreme to the other. Let me tell you,

Elle 12:59
you never wanted to, like write that. You're just like cool with reading.

Lee 13:03
Well, funny and also asked What if anything about that my mom the last few months has been going through and cleaning out, just like cleaning stuff up. And I'll just get these Markopolos of her just relentlessly giggling because she's found another notebook of just the morbid shit I wrote as a kid of disease, horror, short stories of murders, and gore and all sorts of violence stuff, as I guess that's what I wrote as a kid. I don't super remember it. But that's my handwriting. And wow. I made quite a quite a shift.

Elle 13:44
Well, I you know, I will say I started when I started writing, I was writing urban fantasy. That's where I started. I didn't start with romance. And I've often joked that my characters are either fighting or fucking. And so there is actually a similarity between writing these sort of like ultra violent scenes and then writing these ultra romantic scenes. Because it has to do with heightened emotions.

Lee 14:10
That is such a good point. Yeah, I totally agree with you.

Elle 14:14
So like, in a way, I'm kind of not surprised, although the serial serial killer thing isn't reading me.

Which I think is absolutely hilarious. Um, so you were writing then when you were young? That's what you like, obviously,

Lee 14:33
yeah, random short stories. And I think I like when I was a little kid, I tried to write books. One of the most I just wrote all sorts of random stuff, but definitely a lot of creepy short stories. And then in fifth grade, I remember we did these, this, like put together this book over a few months of just like art projects and writing projects. And I remember writing stories about a kid who swell Load watermelon seeds and he grew watermelon in his stomach. And then I took like MC Hammer's oh my god, I can't think of the popular song.

Elle 15:10
Don't Don't touch. You can't you can't touch this, I

Lee 15:16
rewrote that as a Christmas song about you can't wrap this like wrapping gifts and I had to perform it in the cloud

Elle 15:24
that exists on video. So

Lee 15:29
I can't even like find the book that has the lyrics. I need to find it and post it on. So

Elle 15:37
that should be my theme song at the holidays because I

Lee 15:39
can't rap for shit. It's because you're not wearing Hammer pants. And then that's where the rapping power comes from. Oh my god, this is awesome.

Elle 15:53
So at what point at what point? Okay, so you're writing your you obviously liked enjoyed writing, because you're doing it when you're a kid? And that's kind of your past time you go to college? Were you an English major? Or were you like, I'm going to be a writer someday? Or did that dream? Did that get shelved? Or was that like never a sort of goal or dream?

Lee 16:09
I don't know that it was actually tangible goal or dream that I had. I really liked business when I was in high school. And I had planned to be a business major and do marketing. And then when I got to college, I had to take accounting and statistics. And yes, that is exactly the reaction I had. And my ex husband at the time, he has said I had to take this public relations class, I think that this is actually like what you want to do. And before then I was like, interested in archaeology as well, but never really quite figured out what to do there. I just kind of focus on business. And then I did PR. And so that's kind of what I went into at college. I didn't I did not like my English classes. I am one of the people who really do not enjoy reading most classics. I just really struggle with them. I like I like my genre fiction a lot. I mean, I'm happy to read Jane Austen, but I really like my genre fiction. And so I never really liked the English classes that much. I did do a creative writing class. And I don't know, I don't think that that one filled me with joy because of the way that they set up critiquing.

Elle 17:27
I hate writing classes that I really do. I really do. And like my, and I know that this makes me sound like an asshole. So like Andre knew and all of my listeners. My feeling is like, I don't want to take criticism from people who are not like, like, if you're my instructor, please critique me. If you're like, if you haven't published or you have no idea what you're talking about, or you're, you know, whatever. Like, I don't want your criticism.

Lee 18:02
No, it's true, though. Like if you are just reacting subjectively, to your individual likes. That's a subjective thing. You might not like what I'm writing, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

Elle 18:13
Yeah, totally. Yeah. You yeah, I've always hated and that's why like, I'm not a part of like, writing groups. And like, it sucks, because I think I might be missing out on relationships, great relationships, and camaraderie. And also like, yeah, critique partners are important. But I have been so burned by that in writing classes that I have absolutely, like, no interest to do.

Lee 18:40
Oh, that's so sad to think about, like, how many? I just wonder how many writers just have that flame snuffed out in college? And then don't decide to pursue it again. That makes me so sad to think.

Elle 18:54
I mean, do you are you part of like a critique group or like a writing group?

Lee 18:57
Yeah, I do have some critique partners. I but they're, I'm very careful to stay in genre, because I have swapped to some people who are in other genres and the misogyny, about romance. And some like, Wolf. Yeah. So I've been very careful to, to do that. And then now I'm even like moving even closer toward trying to only swap with people who read or write queer romance because I find that there's a lot of like, heteronormativity that is intentionally or unintentionally applied to critique of like, why would the characters do that? Well, they're two gay men, and they might act differently than a straight man and woman would and so I'm having to be a little bit more careful in that area, too.

Elle 19:44
Yeah, I think and this is probably going to I'm going to be so awkward when I'm saying this. So forgive me if this comes out wrong, but I do think that there is this sort of mistaken belief of well, I can write queer romance. It's just like, I'll just take like the the girl part of me You could oh boy, do you not I mean, like, there's that sort of like, reaction. It's like, Nah, shit don't work that way. Yeah, you're so

Lee 20:06
right. And sometimes you can read it. Like, there have been books where I've been reading and I felt like oof, this was written as a hetero male, female romance and the pronouns were changed, because there's some, I mean, I'm not implying that like, there cannot be chivalry or things in same sex relationships. But sometimes there's this like power differential, and, and expectations that seem very common in male female romance that might not exist in male male relationship. So sometimes when you're reading, you're like, Oh, this feels like it was a female character, and the thoughts and the dialogue and stuff, it just, it doesn't fit. It just doesn't feel as natural as a queer relationship. So how do you get

Elle 20:59
it right? Because you obviously identify as a woman. So like, how do you how do you know that you're getting it right? Or how do you? How do you how do you sort of approach the writing so that you make sure that you are getting it right?

Lee 21:13
God? I don't know if I am. Every day, I'm so scared of harming someone? Or yeah,

Elle 21:18
like I would, oh, my God, that's yes, I that would be like my biggest and I in a way, I kind of feel like, that's probably actually what makes it ring true, right? Because you are hyper vigilant about making sure that you're not harming.

Lee 21:33
That's a good point like that, that that constant fear makes me a little, like a little, sometimes afraid to, I don't know, if it's afraid to take risks, but I try to just like I do a lot of research, I read a lot of Reddit threads and just do internet research to make sure I try to have like language, right and reading about heteronormativity of what are just like behaviors that we assume are normal, just because they're normal to heterosexual people. And, and that's just also been a lot of my journey, just as someone who came out in the last couple of years. And so I do a lot of research, I also really try to read a lot of Own Voices, male male romance written by men who identify as queer to just kind of a check to tone and and I tried to listen to what they were saying, and read what they say, in like blog posts and Facebook groups. Whenever the argument kind of pops up. Every so often of sis women shouldn't be writing male male romance and just kind of trying to check with what Own Voices men are saying. And another thing I've tried to do is, well, I cannot try to do but I think because I write low angst, that makes me feel a little better. Because I'm not writing stories where the main conflict centers around harmful things to queer men like homophobia, or like, really traumatizing coming out stories, or really dangerous family situations. I'm not writing those kinds of stories, I'm writing men who are just really like happy and in love. And that helps me kind of feel better about what I'm putting out there is because my own comfort level, and when I'm comfortable writing, I'm not writing harm coming to men who identify like people who identify differently as me.

Elle 23:34
Right, right. I was kind of, you know, because you had mentioned that there is a sort of an own voices component of this. Do you get pushback as not being part of the, you know, not being in the male community?

Lee 23:47
I haven't directly, but these conversations come up a lot. I usually see it on Twitter or Tik Tok, where there will be a conversation where someone will old to say like, why are sis women writing this? And then people start kind of throwing out conversations and words around fetishization. And, and it's really difficult to engage in conversations in those spaces. Because a lot of times people don't want to have a conversation. They just kind of want to say, oh, you're a sis woman. So therefore in your writing male male romance, therefore, you're fetishizing. But I think it's just so nuanced. It comes back to why are you writing it? Why are you choosing to write this population? What is your approach or you're researching or it's just so nuanced? I don't think it's, it's very, one way or the other.

Elle 24:39
So why did you why did you fall late, you know, because I know that you had said you started writing male, female, and it just didn't ring true to you. And you you basically shelved it and you went to cozy, right, because, yeah, I think it's a great, you know, like a little Agatha Christie happened in there, which kind of I think, might tidier Serial Killer obsession some way, but we can analyze that later. But I'm just sort of, you know, wondering like what why? How did you how did you come to male male and sort of go oh, this is where I feel this this is right for me as a writer

Lee 25:19
Have I mentioned I love shits Creek yet totally connected to shits Creek?

Elle 25:25
No. Okay, how was that? How did that happen?

Lee 25:30
So it all kind of like connects to my own queer discovery of myself. And so that happened in like late 2019 I was on I joined tic toc back then. And that algorithm, let me tell you, the algorithm was like, Hey, girl, you know how you thought you're straight for the last 37 years sake. We're gonna just keep showing you these like women and non binary people. And you're just going to question everything. And I did. And hey, hi, I am queer, and probably bisexual. And so that was like, late 2019. And so then when the pandemic hit, I was just I had had so many people recommending to me watch its Creek, watch its Creek. And the more I'm kind of how do I say this a stubborn asshole a little bit. It's my Taurus sun sign. And so I was like, oh, super popular show. Okay, I'll watch it someday. And then finally, when the pandemic hit, I was like, Okay, this the series is ending. And I liked the idea of being able to just watch it as one and not have to wait for a new season. And I was finishing my master's in archaeology at the time and I told myself when I defend my thesis that June so June of 2020, I will finally watch its Creek because I'd had a couple of romance author friends sending me these like compilation videos of one of the couples in the show, just really tugging at my heartstrings. And so that June, I defended my thesis in the afternoon. And then like an hour later, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna start watching shits Creek. I watched the entire six season series in less than a week. I was obsessed.

Elle 27:19
So you did nothing but what shits Creek?

Lee 27:22
Yeah, like every evening, because I'm single and have no kids. So my time is 100% my own and I'm just like, well, I am celebrating. Finishing this thesis was shits Creek every evening for hours. And when there's like this documentary, after the last episode, and I sobbed myself to dehydration, which has never happened before. And then I immediately it was just was so good. And then I immediately started it over and watch it two more times. And then that July I started writing and reading fanfic, because a local romance author, friend, and one of the people who'd been suggesting I watched the show, had started writing thick, and was sending me her stuff. And so I started reading it, and I was like, Oh my gosh, I've never been in a fandom before. This is amazing. And so I started writing it. And I wrote and posted over 600,000 words of Fick over that next year, I just, it was my life during the pandemic in the early part of the pandemic. And I was writing mail mail and that was my first time because I loved David and Patrick's a David is one of the like, the premises, these wealthy brats lose all their money and have to move to this rural town that they randomly own. And the whole series is about their character arc of becoming good people. And so the Son, Dan Levy, he has a really like, he falls in love with a man and that man he falls in love with comes out as gay and it's later in life, like in his late 20s or early mid 30s comes out and so my coming out at that time, coinciding with watching the show about this man and then reading this fic about Patrick's first time doing this and first time on a date and first time and I it just clicked for me and I think writing and reading my life being that, that pairing that relationship for a year, I just felt so comfortable writing and reading that and then that it just then I moved to reading non fanfic male male and was like, Yep, this is where I belong. It just feels right.

Elle 29:32
Oh, wow. And so what was what was the first mill mill book you wrote?

Lee 29:38
It was a book called Just watch me it was my debut that I released in January. And I was kind of simultaneously while I was writing that was planning my brewery series. So my series that I'm publishing and now is for best friends who own a brewery together.

Elle 29:55
Okay, very, very cool. Now, did you ever get where you tried publish at one point or no, you use you were like, forgot.

Lee 30:07
I had an agent and got two acquisitions. And then that was when I decided to kind of leave. It was kind of happening at that point. So I did have an agent for a while.

Elle 30:20
Okay, and so why did you decide to just walk away from that and not pursue the trade route? Well,

Lee 30:25
I would say that I've always been really entrepreneurial. So as a kid, I used to make bracelets and try to sell them to people on my audio, all the traffic that's on my dead end street where I grew up. So like, what I started writing back in 2005, when I read that first romance, and I was like, Yes, this, I like, Trad was the only option. People weren't really indie publishing back then. Or if they were, it certainly wasn't respected like it is now. It just there just weren't as many vehicles to do it. And so my framework was just, you traditionally publish that as the option. That's what you do. And so back then, oh, sorry, how to add a COVID revenant cough. Back then, I joined Romance Writers of America, and was writing paranormal romance and thought, Okay, I want to publish this, I want to try and publish and try to get in with one of the big five. And it took me 10 years before I finished my first book, and it took a trip to Scotland, where I met on my first day a Scottish tour guide. And I was just I remember sitting on the tour bus, thinking, what if I wrote a book about an American sitting on a tour bus and falling for her Scottish tour guide? Where do I get my ideas. I came home and wrote that book. And like we became friends, and he still does not know. I wrote this book with him as inspiration. So I switched to contemporary and that book got me into pitch wars in 2017, a mentorship contest, where part of it was like, if you get selected, you work with someone to polish your manuscript. And at the end, there's this huge agent showcase. And all of these agents want to make requests. And I so I got my agent out of that in 2017. With my contemporary Scotland books, I was really positioning myself as like writing male, female romance set in Scotland contemporary. And I just after a while, like, I don't know, I knew I like as indie was becoming more popular, and there are more resources to help people that entrepreneurial bug in my head, really liked that. And so I decided, okay, I want to I want to go hybrid, I want to try to like, traditionally published first, because I really think that for a while it was the external validation that I was craving, of like an agent and an editor telling me that my writing was good and worth investing in. Yeah. And that was really hard to like, step back from that and believe in myself in a different way. Not that traditionally published authors don't believe in themselves. It's just a different angle of it when you're publishing stuff yourself. And so I it took me a while to feel comfortable, like financially investing in my writing myself. And I think that, like, while I was agented, I was really struggling with a lot of things about the industry, like how long it would take to just, you know, super, super slow response times for things waiting for other people to take action before I could reach my goal. It just bothered me how little control I had. Yeah, yeah. Again, with the entrepreneurial stuff. And my day job career is like public relations, communications, marketing. And so I know those are skills, and parts of being an indie author that intimidate a lot of people. And one reason why they don't want to do it is like, oh my gosh, if I'm, you know, responsible for all of that, like I that is intimidating. And that part didn't intimidate me as much. So I decided to leave my agent and do cozy mysteries, and indie publish that and so I indie published my first one in December 2021. And as soon as I made the decision, I was like, Yes, this feels right. I like having the control. I like getting to experiment. I like the immediate validation of like, I finish a book, I can edit the book, and I can post it when I want and then start getting reader feedback from it. And that feedback loop kind of pushes me to write the next one.

Elle 34:41
Right, right. And actually, the reader feedback is actually more valuable, I think, than a publishers feedback because, you know, frankly, they're, you know, they're kind of like, you know, publishing what the market what the quote unquote market dictates, but I don't think that they really quite understand what What the market dictates, whereas your readers are the market. And so if they respond in a certain way, then you know, okay, like I've had a, I've hit this thing, and now I can keep going or Okay, I need to pivot. And I think that when you're with a traditional house, you can't you can't be that nimble.

Lee 35:19
Yeah, yes, I totally agree with you. And I think that they're working on data, which is understandable, they're investing a lot of money. And so they have to be more careful in a way that indie authors don't have to be. And so you know, maybe they're working on data that might be older might be not quite right. Or some people like sometimes readers of Trad books are a little different from indie books, because some readers like to go to Barnes and Noble and get their books. And it's hard as an indie author to get your books in there. And so they might just be reaching different audiences to write but it's just, it's nice, like, even from a business perspective of yeah, there's a lot more financial investment, I have to put in my writing career as an indie author than I did when I was pursuing traditional publishing because I pay for editing and covers and subscriptions and all sorts of stuff. But I only have to wait 60 days for Amazon to pay me my royalties versus months or years from a traditional publisher. And so that helps me reinvest that money back into my business, which hopefully, like gets me closer to like being able to do this full time. So I think, even from the business perspective, I like that angle of indie publishing a bit more than how Trad would have worked for me.

Elle 36:34
I kind of want to back up for a minute and sort of talk about how you know, you've got this comms and marketing background. And like, you know, you're not intimidated by that part of it. And I come from very similar, you know, calm comms background, and I'm sort of sitting here every time I have to post on Instagram, I die a little death. Like, I can do it. For other people. I can't do it for me. And so I'm like, What's your secret sauce? Tell me everything.

Lee 37:01
100% the same way I do social media coaching with authors, and I can talk all day about their stuff. And like I like Do what I say don't do what I do. Because I'm so bad at my own because I like working on other people's without when it comes to mine. I'm just like, oh, shit, okay, I know, this is what I should be doing. I should be doing this. But it's like the last thing I want to do. So I am not my own. I am not my own best example. But I know I can do it. I just don't take the time to do it.

Elle 37:35
Yeah, like I'm always like, on Saturday, I am going to devote all Saturday afternoon to creating a month's worth of social media posts that I'm gonna schedule and it's gonna And then Saturday afternoon rolls around I'm like, No, we're not doing that.

Lee 37:48
Are we the same person? It's like yeah, we write instead because that's the most important thing is putting up new books. Yes, that's what

Elle 37:56
I'm like. I'm always like, you know what, you know, what's more important than social media getting the next book out? Are you on you're doing the Tick Tock thing I like Oh, God.

Lee 38:08
Yes, I have the account and I post every once in a while and then I'm just like, oh, I need to post like a video a day. I so like with my comms and PR background, it's it's the word your stuff. I don't have the advertising background or the copywriting. And so that's copywriting element of TiC tock is really intimidating to me of trying just like writing blurbs for my books, like trying to succinctly hook someone and a very few words. And that really intimidates me about tick tock is trying to like really nail that hook in a brief amount of time.

Elle 38:44
And I'm finding my books aren't that hockey. Oh, my gosh,

Lee 38:47
that is brutal. Yes. My first brewery book it just didn't have the tropes that I knew that I was writing. I'm like, I'm setting up a world. I don't have solid tropes in this book. Like I'm getting tropes from reviews where people are like, Oh, friends to lover I'm like, Yeah, okay, I'm gonna start calling this a friend. Moving forward, that it's like, Okay, my next book, I'm like, thinking about the Tick Tock copy when I'm actually writing the book. Because like,

Elle 39:13
as a romance reader, like I never, ever noticed tropes. I just read what I liked. And it never occurred to me that these things were tropes just never occurred to me. Never occurred to me. I was always just like reading an author that I really loved or reading a book because I like the cover or, you know, like, whatever it was, that drew me to the book, it was never a trope. And so when I read that I never thought about tropes as I was reading and so as a writer, I don't really think about tropes. I just write the story I want to write which is like, the most ass backward way to go about writing genre fiction, especially if you want to make a living on it, but that was what I do.

Lee 39:54
I kind of love that though. Because you're like, like the marketing and PR side of your brain is like I know I would be easier on myself if I have these like very specific things I can say about the book. And the other part, like your creative brain is like new. We're doing this my way. Yeah, I'm,

Elle 40:10
it's like, you know, I'm like, I'm like, I'm alive in this world, like, the trucks don't exist. I'm reading stories. And then it's like, okay, so then what are your tropes? And I'm like, um, oh, or, Oh, yeah. I don't like I don't like rock star. Like.

Lee 40:33
That's true. Yes.

Elle 40:37
I count counts, right? So I'm sort of, like, that's also like, part of my struggle. When I'm writing this copy. It's like, okay, so what's the tropes? And it's like, I really don't know. And that is tough. It is. Really, it's

Lee 40:51
really, really hard.

Elle 40:53
It is. And it's so funny because we can write 80,000 words in books, but then it's like, you know, write a three sentence blurb like really succinct, and we're just like, I have no idea what my books about.

Lee 41:02
Yes, it is. So freaking tough. I struggled so much. One piece of advice that I had heard, but I hadn't internalized until now. I've published a few books. And I'm like, Oh, I'm doing this from now on, is writing the blurb before I write the book. Yeah, that's what I've heard, too. Yeah. And when one of my podcast interviews, I think it was km new hold, was talking about that. And how she said, it just helps her really boil down the hook of the story without the weight and baggage of trying to explain what happened. It's just what you're trying to get to. And so she will, like adjust it when she's written the book. But she said, it's completely changed how she can write blurbs by doing it before because you just you're not trying to like, you know, do a synopsis of something. And I think that's where my brain has a really hard time stepping away from that synopsis attempt.

Elle 41:56
Right. And one of the things that has helped me is sort of like it, and again, it sort of helps me whittle it down a little bit more is I only allow myself to named characters in my book, the love interest, they can be the only ones in the blurb that gets a name that get named. And so and so you start to sort of that's when you start to go, oh, I can't put an on Poly, because because, you know, probably doesn't belong in there. Which kind of helps, you know, sort of like whittle it down a little bit.

Lee 42:32
Yeah. Oh, that's such a good point.

Elle 42:35
To jump back to, you know, writing mail mail, and, and you're doing these podcast interviews with other authors. And I've had, you know, a number of authors on here that are writing male male or you know, sometimes are non binary. And they're either non binary or, or they're women. And I'm, and so I'm wondering, are you finding a lot of women in the male male space? Right, as far as writing goes?

Lee 43:07
Yes, definitely. I think that it's at least in the, like, being able to judge by bios on the backs of the book, because a lot of authors either have names that might be perceived as more gender neutral or using initials. But from based on bios, I would say, most of the romance that come across is written by women. And I just a couple weeks ago, I was at a conference called the gay romance lit retreat. And I just based off like, the people that I knew, and the pronouns that they use, it seems like most of the people I've met, they're kind of used she her pronouns. And one thing, I remember reading a blog post about this last year, of a man, a gay man, who was talking about that, from his perspective, of why does he think that so many women are reading and writing male male romance? And he said, that he thinks in, in some situations, it just could be that women are more comfortable writing about emotion, in some ways, and in reading, and being drawn to books about emotion and with emotion being the core of romance, that that was kind of what his perspective was, and I thought that was really interesting to kind of think about of, of just, you know, gender roles and how we grew up in, at least in the US. So, US society, of just how there's broad with broad strokes here, but like, generally speaking, it's more I'm using air quotes acceptable for women, to be emotional to talk about emotion to have emotions. And does that play a role in who is choosing to write romance? I think that's really interesting to think about.

Elle 44:51
That is actually very interesting to think about and who almost who's allowed to write I mean, yeah, I do know that for a while there. There were a number of you know, Men or you know, people who identified as male who were writing romance, but they were writing under a woman's name because they would get savagely attacked online. If people found out that they were there was a man behind that name.

Lee 45:14
Yes, I've seen that happen to over the years. And that's really frustrating, especially kind of having a different perspective now of writing male male and being writing about, like an identity that isn't quite my own, and how so many men are embracing women being in the genre and writing it and creating and then just thinking back on how many men were not given the same, like men who are taking it seriously. And men who like right researching and try to do good, and do good representation and how they were treated over the years is kind of difficult to think about, we write in my, I used to be an NWA, and in Romance Writers of America and we had several men in our local chapter. And I really appreciate the care that they took, and the questions that they would ask about representation and trying to do good work and how kind of people embraced them. So that was, that was good thinking about that backbone.

Elle 46:12
Yeah, I think that's great. You know, I mean, I do think that romance as, like, on the whole, just like as a as like, this sort of big, all encompassing romance is a very feminist place to live. Yes. Which is one of the things that I love so much about it. And one of the reasons people are like, Why did you stop writing urban fantasy, and I miss it, and I love it. And maybe someday I will go from contemporary to paranormal romance. But a big part of the reason why it changed over was the readers. I just liked romance readers better. Yeah, and I think that there is this sort of, you know, there's less misogyny, although, of course, there's internalized misogyny and all that. But there is less misogyny, I think, on the whole in the romance world, and that's kind of where I wanted to be.

Lee 47:02
I totally agree with you. I think like having conversations with people over the years, it'd be like romance. Why do you writing romance? Like, when I was writing hetero male, female romance, it was like, Oh, why would I want to write books where women have power and agency and are like, feminist by nature, because so many people will be like, they're just trashy sex books like, well, if they do have sex, if they are sexual in nature, then what's wrong with books where women are taking their own power and having pleasure, like, yeah, there should be no judgement about that. Like that. That's amazing.

Elle 47:37
Yeah. And I mean, by the same token to like, you can have two men fall in love. And that's, you know, and they can have this, you know, beautiful relationship and this beautiful sexual relationship. And we don't and again, like it's that sort of like baggage of this heritage and her heteronormative sort of, like, alpha male that's gonna come in, and you know what I mean, like, and fuck you sideways. You know, like it just like, there's, I forgot where I'm going with that. So

Lee 48:06
that's true. Like, there's space for everything. We shouldn't have these stereotypes about how men are always supposed to act like there's there's room for that the Alpha guys also room for like the cinnamon rolls, and just the soft, sweet guys who just want someone to like, hold their hand and kiss her cheek and tell them that they love them. Like there's there's space for everything.

Elle 48:28
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But I do think that it is also this sort of place where you can just celebrate love. Yeah, in all of, you know, whatever that looks like.

Lee 48:41
Absolutely. I do love that. Romance is just so sweet.

Elle 48:47
If it's low angst, yes, so. So okay, this is a little bit, we're gonna get to your intimate scene. So before before I read it, I want to know to you and this is a little bit like asking like, well, what's low x, but so to you what makes an intimate scene good, like what is on your mind when you're writing it?

Lee 49:09
So for me what I think about what in terms of what I like, like, as a writer or reader, I really like a mix of emotion and action. And getting so it's not just this body part does this thing, but like building in the emotion. And then if it's like earlier in a story before there's an emotional investment in the relationship, I really like a glimpse at kind of the before, like, why they don't want to be emotionally invested, or the glimpse that they get of how it could be if they open themselves up or what they're trying to protect themselves from. And I like how an intimate scene can show that in a way that other scenes can't. And like as the relationships deepening in those intimate scenes, I really like to read about like the connection between the characters, how they feel safe with each other how they they You fit together specifically, like, why is it this these people in this relationship, I also really like a mix of description of the action to help me visualize it. And like, the internal thoughts, feelings and sensations that the characters are experiencing that, to me makes a good intimate scene. But also, like personal preference, I love humor. Like, whether it's like laughing over like an accident, or like someone acts like gets like a heel to the face, or there's like a weird, something just being silly together. I really, really like when people can be vulnerable in an intimate scene and be silly and vulnerable in that way too.

Elle 50:41
Right? Right. I was about to say there's a vulnerability to the silliness, right? Because you sort of like, fall off the bed or, you know, there is a vulnerability with that, you know, like, where you're kind of like, Yeah, I kind of look like an asshole right now. I'm not very sexy at the moment.

Lee 50:56
Oh, these bodies are making really weird sounds. Like, it's funny. I really liked that. It just, it's like, it really shows a vulnerability in a way where I'm just like, Okay, this couple is gonna be solid, like he can be silly with each other. This is great.

Elle 51:12
So I am reading from eternal optimist, which I love that, that.

That the title and this this is from the what's the series? It's tap, visit, tap, tap, tap that brewery? Yeah,

Lee 51:30
they really can you tell I really like puns. Yeah, I was dying. When I read

Elle 51:33
when I was like, tap that. I was like, that's perfect. Haha. Perfect. Um, why did you pick this particular scene?

Lee 51:43
So I picked it, because so well, this is like a specific relationship story. And I picked it because it shows like, it shows a vulnerability with the scene. So basically, like, this is a story of Ethan and Parker, and like, Ethan is one of the top that brewery owners, and he just really, really, really wants to fall in love. He's the one of the four guys who just loves love. He always is in relationships, but they always dump him. And so at the beginning of the book, he's taking a break from writing or writing from romance. And we're trying to figure out like, what he's done wrong, and why people keep leaving him no matter how he like bends over backward to, to make people fall in love with him. And so this is kind of like setting it up. But it's the kind of the why I chose it. And meanwhile, Parker is the other guy. And he's like a real estate attorney. And he's trying to get a promotion to partner at work, like the partner track. And his work has never promoted someone who's single, like do their family values. bullcrap. And so Austin and Parker meet. And when they do, like Ethan's having this issue with his aunt, who's about to lose her house to these predatory developers. And so he's like, oh, okay, I'm not dating. But I met this guy who's a real estate attorney who needs a boyfriend to get a promotion. So if I can pretend to be his boyfriend, maybe he can help me save my aunt's house. And so they enter this fake relationship agreement. But as they get to know each other, Parker admits to Ethan, I've always been interested in exploring kink, but I've never had a partner interested in it. And due to the nature of my job, and like the family values crap at work, I don't feel comfortable just like going on an app and finding someone to do that with. So with this scene, why chosen why wrote it as I really wanted to see, and this is their first kink scene. And they've had sex once before just to kind of get comfortable with each other's bodies, because Ethan kind of offers to do this kink one on one class with Parker. And so with this scene, this is their first time where they're having any kinky activity. And it just shows like how Ethan makes Parker feel, and like just kind of showing how that dynamic can go and in an emotional way, because this is like the book has some kink in it, but it's not a kinky book, like the kink is used as a way for them to get to get to know each other. Right. So I wanted to do that scene to kind of show that emotional vulnerability and comfort that they have with each other.

Elle 54:31
How long did it take did you take to get them together in that sort of sexual like to like to hook them up?

Lee 54:39
Um, that's a good question, I think. Because I think that this scene happens after the midpoint. So I think that the first sex scene is either the midpoint or before a little before

Elle 54:54
or okay, just kind of curious what like how slow was the burn in this

Lee 55:00
Talking about sex really early on, because when that when that like when Ethan proposes that kink one on one class like they're texting about it. And so there's like steamy conversations, but I think I think that the first sex scene was a little before the midpoint. Gotcha.

Elle 55:18
Gotcha. Okay. I'm going to read a bit from this. I mumbled brief responses. And oh, we I'm sorry, before we begin, we should also say the their role playing. So this is part of their kink is that they've decided that they're going to do a little role playing exercise, which is sort of like, super fun. And they're kind of like, we're flooded. And we're pretending we're flight attendants who meet for liaisons when we're in the same city. And I was like, that's such

Lee 55:43
a good point about setting it up. Yes, sir. They're at an airport hotel. Like they're flying out the next morning to go help Ethan's aunt like at a meeting with the developers. And so they're like at the hotel the night before? And yes, so why not roleplay flight attendants,

Elle 56:00
because I was like, This is so fun. I love this idea. And it was so adorable. Like we're two flight attendants. And we have these liaisons when we're in the same city. I was like, Oh, my God, that try that some time. Okay. I mumbled brief responses in appropriate places as I waited for him to do something to touch me. Anything, anywhere. Oh, and I should also add part of this kink moment, I keep adding things as I'm like doing this is he's wearing a blindfold? Yes. So So and that was sort of like he had the room. He's in the room. And this is before Ethan comes in, and he puts a blindfold on. So he's relies on sound. He knows that Ethan's come into the room and all that, but he can't see anything

Lee 56:50
else. Yes. And that was like his idea. Parker was, ooh, I'm kind of interested because Ethan's trying to kind of find out what Parker is interested in. Since Parker doesn't have a lot of experience. He's trying to kind of help Parker experience a lot of different things so that they can sort of figure out what Parker really wants to dive more deeply into. And so Parker was like, yeah, oh, I'll put a blindfold on the tire on my face. Why not?

Elle 57:16
Let me try this. So this is this is related. So this is what's happened in right before this moment. I mumbled brief responses in appropriate places as I waited for him to do something to touch me. Anything anywhere. I squirmed as I tried to shake the off Ness clouding my desire. The bed dipped and I jumped when Ethan's warm palms slit up my shin. I'm going to make the best of the next few hours I have with you before your next flight. He kissed the side of my leg inhaling deeply when he reached my inner thigh. My skin was tight as a vacuum sealed bag around me. I didn't like it. The sensation was fine, great even but too impersonal. If not for recognizing His voice. He could have been anyone touching my most sensitive skin. I thought about the traffic lights he taught he taught me while trying to focus on him. The grays of his fingertips against the crease of my upper thigh. I grip the sheets under me and pressed into the bad. Parker. What's your color? Yeah, softly while rubbing gentle circles on my hip. I can do this. I'm having fun. Mostly. This is great. A little bit uncomfortable. But I should stick with it since I suggested it. If I given immediately was it was I even cut out for kink. Ethan's voice filled my head. Either of us can change our minds about anything at any time. It's okay to want something in one moment, not the next. Sometimes an idea seems fun in theory, but not in practice. Ethan gave me the gift of my voice yellow I blurted before I'd even unclench my fingers from the sheets. Ethan's gentle hands quickly pulled the tie off my head without lingering. He sat cross legged and his boxer briefs and peered at me with his hands in his lap. I found no hint of frustration or disappointment. he exuded calmness, curiosity and as usual warmth, the warmth that had drawn me toward him initially, I relaxed. I made the right choice. I'm proud of you. I didn't expect those words, but they were exactly what I needed. He's perfect. I loved that moment. I

Lee 59:19
was like, yes, yes, yes. Perfect. Thank you.

Elle 59:24
You know, it's, it's, I love what you did here too. Because when I'm reading books with kencana, like, I've often read those sort of like moments of trepidation for the person who has never embarked in kink before. And then it's kind of gotten over and continues like nobody, I've never read a moment where there's an actual stop. Like there's an actual halt and they come out of it and they say, and they have the conversation. Where are we now how do you feel what's going on? What can we change to make you more comfortable? Like like that's, like that's never happened and in books that I've read with kink on Um, you know, like, I'm not saying that I have like a huge encyclopedic knowledge of kink books, but I thought that was really lovely that you were that you did that in this moment.

Lee 1:00:09
Thank you, I really wanted a way to show how they are comfortable with each other and how Parker is comfortable with Ethan in a way, he's never been with one of his exes. And that, just how they've created this connection with each other where they can be really vulnerable, and do something that might seem hard, like it's in the moment like, okay, it's not that uncomfortable, I can just push through, but no, like, Ethan taught me that it should be as good as it can be. And it's okay to stop it and like, readjust. And just Parker getting that proof from Ethan of, oh, he's not mad at me. He's not judging me. He's not doing anything and how that helps them really cement this connection, because at this point, there's still very much fake relationship. Ethan is trying not to admit his feelings. He's I'm doing this kink. 101 To help Parker This isn't us in a relationship. I'm still kind of on my dating hiatus. And so I really wanted something to kind of make Ethan realize like, oh, shit, like, this guy. is really good for me.

Elle 1:01:19
I like what I'm sort of wondering is why do people keep dumping Ethan He's great.

Lee 1:01:25
He's so adorable. And he just is like a little, little golden retriever. He's the each of the guys at the brewery have like their own area of focus and Ethan's area is he runs the taproom part of the brewery, and he's their bartender, and so he's a very, like, smiley, public face of the brewery and, but he has a tendency to, like, adopt the hobbies of whoever he's dating. He's pansexual. And so he's dates, you know, wide range of genders. But one thing he always does is like, I want to be who they want. So I will do whatever I will adapt to their hobbies. I'll twist myself to be the person they want. And Parker is like the first person he hasn't done that with. So that's kind of he just isn't always fully himself in relationships.

Elle 1:02:13
Okay, got it got up. Okay, golden retriever. I love him. I know I'm gonna keep going. How can I get a little femur? The clock's ticking. I better get my filth. my fill of view Ethan kissed all over my body as though he were trying to get a blackout as he as if you were trying to get a blackout bingo on my skin. He flicked his tongue around my nipples, applying gentle pressure and a pattern I couldn't discern. I squirmed and press my chest against him in desperation. I was so lost in his worship of my body that minutes went by before I realized I hadn't thought about the blindfold at all. Seeing him at the beginning made all the difference. His understanding made all of the difference. The blindfold allowed me to focus on my other senses and linger on New Sensations the light scratch of stubble as he looked across my skin, the grown sending shockwaves from the back of his throat when I begged the softness of his hair where I gripped up. Blindfolds are going in the keeper column. I hoped we would try restraints at some point to it was like, Oh my God, such a difference from where they started with the blindfold and now how he feels about the rifle. And I just kind of love that moment. It felt like a full circle moment. You know, like where we were kind of bringing it back to that and saying, Hey, like, I'm okay with this now.

Lee 1:03:31
Yeah, like he found the thing that he needed. So not only is he like discovering that comfort with Ethan, he's finding his own boundaries and his own needs of okay, I do like this activity, but here's what I need. For it to be enjoyable for me. I need to see the person before the blindfold goes on. And then green lights go wrap my head cover my eyes or whatever. Like let's do this. Like he's like kind of learning about himself too. And that Ethan is kind of creating that space for him to discover. Okay, do you like this but it needs XYZ. Right?

Elle 1:04:07
So good. I heard a zipper some rustling, clinking and other eye on identical identifiable sounds. He returned in something extremely soft brushed across my skin, teasing my arm across my chest and down my sides, a feather or a soft brush. Next was something scratchy, but it didn't really do much for me. Ethan must have sensed it because he moved on to something smooth and cool a Polish stone. When he dragged it across the sensitive skin between my thighs. I gasped and and sucked in a breath. Having an solely focused on my body and pleasure shot my enjoyment toward the sky. He acted like there was a direct connection between our bodies each time I gasped or moaned. He did too. I hissed. When Ethan circled one nipple with an ice cube while his tongue teased the other. The dueling sensations made my eyes roll back when he switched and applied his hot mouth to my cold skin. I was done for on my deck had been steadily hardening but that pushed it over the edge into testing the confines of the jock. So fucking good. Hotel ice machines are the best thing ever invented. I barely tracked his mouth moving down my body until the jock slid forward slid toward my feet. It's been too long since I got my mouth on you. I jerk off every night thinking about sucking you off. It didn't matter if he was in character because I'd done the same thing. Ethan's hot tongue looped around my crown and tease the slit while he moved the ice cube back to my nipples. I heard loud moans and assumed our neighbors were also getting it on. But then I realized they were for me. I'd never been so vocal before. Do you have an advanced degree in BJs? Because Jesus, it was the best blow job I've ever had. He trailed the ice cube along my happy trail while he loved my balls. I couldn't keep track of the sensations any longer as he gripped me expertly with long, hard strokes. When he put his mouth back on me again taking me to the root. I shot up onto my elbows. His mouth was freezing. Oh my god. Oh my god. Instinct urged me to pull away but I ignored it basking in the sensation as his mouth warmed from the heat of my cock. If my deck wasn't already hard as steel, Ethan's horse chuckle would have done the job. This is so fucking fun. I can't believe I've been missing out on this. I like love that moment because it was like I'm like it brought me right there with the shock of the ice cube. I was like, I don't think I don't think my reading of that did it justice. He took me to the he took me to the edge of lightning speed as I gave up trying to hold on. I reminded myself that wasn't our last time together to let go. I gripped his hair with one hand and my own with the other. His debauched moan when I accidentally squeezed too hard while his finger teased my rim pulled sounds for me I'd never made before his mouth had lost its cool edge and his tongue burned against me as he laughed at my pre calm while coaxing my whole to let him in. Much like the gentle Coast coaxing he'd been doing with my trust for weeks. Oh my god, that was so great. I sort of loved how it was like tying in this sort of like really steamy, steamy moment, with like, and then it sort of like goes back to the trust part. And like, emotions, yeah. And like the fact that they're able to have this moment, because they had that trust, right going on. That was the trust was building. And that's actually why they were at this moment, right now, it had nothing to do with the kink and the sex and the kink, 101. And all of that. It really had to do with the trust.

Lee 1:07:39
Yeah. And that's, that's a really good example of how I like trying to tell people, This is not a kink book. This is a book that has kink as like a mechanism to show the trust, because I don't want people to like pick it up and expect like, oh, girl, let's do this. I'm ready for kinky read.

Elle 1:07:56
I know, but isn't that like it? kink is all about trust. Yeah, ultimately, you know, and I think that, um, which is why I sort of think it's really cool that you are like using that as a mechanism as the focus or you're using trust as the trust as the focus rather than or kink is the focus. Like, I just feel like there's a little bit it's a little bit more overt and what you're doing that you are able to sort of use it as the mechanism toward to Trump trust or vice versa, like, I don't know, I don't know, but do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally, totally.

Lee 1:08:32
I think that makes a lot of sense. Like, I'm

Elle 1:08:34
tripping around that. But But I think that there are parallels here and I think that it's really, really cool how you view how you've done? Thank you. Okay, we're gonna go to like the steamiest moment. I thought it was stimulus. His eyes were closed in excess ecstasy as he helped me write out my orgasm reaching between his legs and jerking furiously fuck my mouth. Please, please need it. I pulled it his shoulders. Ethan's tongue darted out to dab at the corner of his mouth before scrambling up my body, straddling my chest and teasing my lips with the head of his deck. I opened my mouth but he didn't push in. I begged him with my eyes to give me what I desperately needed. The blindfold is off, by the way, given me everything else. Don't stop now. If I could give him even a fraction of the pleasure he'd given me I needed to I wanted to. I might be new to kink, but I wasn't new to sucking cock. I knew some tricks. So cute. He teased his crown around my lips letting me taste how turned on he was desperate and beyond bagging. I reached around, cupped his cheeks dug my fingers into his crack and pulled him into my mouth. A surprise grunt escaped him as he scrambled to balance and slammed his palm against the wall. He didn't hold back on thrusting and as far as I could take him, I let my middle fingers graze his whole as I held on, you look fucking incredible with my dick in your mouth. Sweat dripped down his temples. I moaned and doubled my efforts. I needed a taste of him needed my reward. Moments later Ethan warned me before spilling down my throat and easing the thrust of his hips until he jerked and pulled out. He paused and I craned my neck to kiss the head of his cock before dropping back and letting my eyes fall closed. I would have bet 50 bucks the grin on my face would fall in the middle of a Venn diagram between goofy and blissed. Goofy and blessed oh my god, so sweet. And yeah, that was pretty damn steamy.

Lee 1:10:31
Whoo. That was really you say like sweet. That's the thing that I learned. I tried to write see me but for every like ounce of steam, there's like a pound of sweetness. I just can't help it. I can't help it. Like my first book just watched me. I was like, Oh, this is a really steamy premise. This book is going to be like so hot and just super Steamy with like, exhibitionism and voyeurism. And it is just like a sweet book that has some exhibitionism and voyeurism in it. I can't get away. I can't thank sweetness. I mean, I

Elle 1:11:03
think that's the thing, right? I'm really I'm reading this and like, this is hot. This is hot. This is hot. And then I was like,

oh I love how the two are sort of like they just like play with each other right in there, where you're just like, oh, this

is really rad. Like, you're like, I need a fan. And then and then it's like this sort of day. I love them. This was super, super fun. What a really great scene. And I know like we're missing like the second part of this that you had sent me. Where it's just where we go into Ethan's head and it's just all about aftercare. And it is like the sweetest thing and very, I'm very lovely. And I'm just like, I love these two. They're great. Thank you. Ah, so Lee, where can people find you on the internet?

Lee 1:11:59
So for my books, it's Lee Blair books.com, or Liebler books on Instagram, Facebook, or tick tock. I also have a Facebook reader group called Li blit li Blair's buddies. And on Thursdays I post a random excerpt of so like in the book, I have these group chats with the brewery guys. I have a few of them in each book. And then they like start the chapters. And on Thursdays I just post whatever random as hell like group text, like yesterday, I posted one about one of the guys stealing the Almond Joys from the other guys Halloween candy, and then got it. So I post those in my Facebook group and then the podcast links library on any major podcast platforms and that links to library.com or lowing at links library on Instagram, Facebook or Tik Tok.

Elle 1:12:50
Excellent. And I forgot to ask, but I will say I will have all of these in the show notes. So people if you're driving, you don't have to like pull over and panic. And when are you launching I record like so far in advance. I don't know if you do too. I'm like, I always have like a whole shit crap. Ton of interviews lined up because I'm so paranoid that like, I'm gonna run out and I'm gonna get to like a week where I'm posting and I'm like, Oh my God, I don't have it. So I like back so many I don't know, if you do the same, but when, uh, when are you launching?

Lee 1:13:30
So it was supposed to be in like the third week of October but with the technical issues I was having it was delayed. And then I got COVID. And my voice went away. So now that my voice is back, I can record the episode intros. And so I'm hoping that that means so we're early November now. And the next week or so. I'm hoping that I did six interviews. And so I wanted to have a few episodes available for people to binge. And then I'll be doing a new episode every two weeks. And I've already recorded the first of those regular episodes. So cool. Hopefully, by mid November, we'll have like seven or eight episodes up.

Elle 1:14:07
Wow. Excellent. Yeah, I know that sort of every I was on an every week schedule when I started and I just couldn't keep up especially like once we got sort of like through COVID and like work started coming back. And you know, I was like I can't do every week. That's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of work. So So I went to the every other week to Well, Lee, thank you so much for being here. It was super fun to talk to you.

Lee 1:14:28
Thank you. I had a blast. I love listening to the episodes. And this is just so much fun to get to talk to you instead of like listening to two of my besties talking like I got to talk to a bestie is what this feels like. It was so much fun. And I can't

Elle 1:14:39
wait for your podcast and watch because I'm like really psyched to listen to it. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai